BellinisAuto Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 Ok so hoping for some help. Grandmother has a 2011 journey AWD with disc brakes all around. they were in need of rear brakes. so she took it to her local shop intown. the did the work and when she got the vehicle back the brake pedal would bleed to the ground but it did have brakes. She took it back to the shop. *Will do My Best To Explain Everything* Once they had it back the figured it just needs to be bleed, (Didn't work) Second they replaced the master cylinder factoring in the symptoms. (Didn't work) Third they couldn't figure it out themselves so they towed it to Chrysler dealer and had them Diagnose, Was told it was the rear right caliper, Replaced it and same issue continued. They Gave up and told her sorry. Week later she brought it to my shop. First Looking over everything that had previously been done, in my opinion master cylinder did not look new, (Northern IL Vehicle you can tell if something is new or been effected be our Salty Winters) So replaced master cylinder with new, Bleed the system and seemed to have a hard firm pedal with engine off and engine running. Great figured it out and decided to Drive it for a day home. Started it up to go to work the next day and pedal goes to floor. BUT IT STILL HAS BREAKS, just bleeds to the floor Get to the shop and start some diagnosing. Removed all wheels and did a brake test. Found front right caliper frozen, replaced both front calipers. After bleeding found right rear caliper is extending and then retracting completely with the release of brake pedal. Replaced left rear caliper. So all Calipers have Been Replaced For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster. Bleed system and Pedal still Bleeds to the floor but it has brakes. I'm Stumped Sense the rest of the brake system has been replaced I went ahead and replaced the abs Pump/control Module. Bleeding the Brake System Over and Over mechanically and electronically still no difference in pedal. Checked all Brake System Fuses, All Good. And of course all this work is no charge to my grandmother. Any help would be appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5rebel9 Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 WOW! I feel for you, getting same problem someone else has already messed with. Been there. Not a lot left except to check the electric pump for the power brakes and may have a shot brake booster. The 3.6 uses a pump and not manifold vacuum. I have not run into this situation yet, but there are a lot of posts here of same problem and on another forum for Dodge cars that use the same system for brakes that I frequent, most do not respond to the actual fix other than figuring out improper bleeding. From your posting of talents, I'd assume you did it right. 2late4u 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2late4u Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 when you find out your fix to this problem,,,, PLEASE report back on it,as said this has been asked here before but they never come back to report the fix,so no help for the next person For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster. BY this do you mean the rubber hoses from the brake lines to the calipers? some have found the rubber hoses being pinched due to rust between the hose and the clamp holding it down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 (edited) Air has to be getting back in system some how. 2011 so maybe a corroded line with a pin hole. Bleed it again and leave the wheels off overnight on a hoist. Press pedal in the morning and have someone try and turn each wheel with brakes on. If there is not at a visible leak, then wheel or wheels that can still be turned are allowing air back in. Examine every inch of metal line on that wheel. I like nickel copper line for replacement, easiest to work with. Are you using a pressure bleeder or just manual bleeding.? Edited October 14, 2021 by John/Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted October 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 17 hours ago, 2late4u said: when you find out your fix to this problem,,,, PLEASE report back on it,as said this has been asked here before but they never come back to report the fix,so no help for the next person For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster. BY this do you mean the rubber hoses from the brake lines to the calipers? some have found the rubber hoses being pinched due to rust between the hose and the clamp holding it down Yes I replaced all soft lines to the calipers. i will be looking into the vacuum pump today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted October 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 16 hours ago, John/Horace said: Air has to be getting back in system some how. 2011 so maybe a corroded line with a pin hole. Bleed it again and leave the wheels off overnight on a hoist. Press pedal in the morning and have someone try and turn each wheel with brakes on. If there is not at a visible leak, then wheel or wheels that can still be turned are allowing air back in. Examine every inch of metal line on that wheel. I like nickel copper line for replacement, easiest to work with. Are you using a pressure bleeder or just manual bleeding.? I have used manual, pressure and electronic bleeding procedures, al hard lines have been looked over and are in immaculate condition. I have already let it sit over night many times to hopefully find a drip somewhere and no luck. And all wheel will continue to lock up as they should. what is puzzling is that when the the engine is off and hitting the brake pedal it is stiff like it should be. even when you give it a day it is still stiff, it will not soften or move as if there was air still in the system or getting into the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted November 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 So got to the point where I was just scratching my head, so I took it into town to the Chrysler dealer. Told them everything I did and what its doing. they had it for about 2 weeks before I got a call. the told me it was the rear calipers, witch is weird because I just replaced all calipers with new. not reman. so I took what they said and warrantied them out and no difference. I'm at a lost and not sure what to do next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2late4u Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 so did they replace them? or did you just pay them for a diagnostic fee and did the repair yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted November 23, 2021 Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 (edited) Have you tried cycling parking brake a bit, between bleeding cycles. I replaced rear calipers on a 2014, took a lot of time to get air out. They don’t like pads being at 1/4 material wear left, , new pads strangely helped pedal height and feel. Abs sometimes needs pulsing via hand held diagnostic unit if it has a lot of trapped air. But usually it’s ok. Abs pump could be some how allowing air in. Dealer not necessarily being straight with you. Edited November 23, 2021 by John/Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted November 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 33 minutes ago, 2late4u said: so did they replace them? or did you just pay them for a diagnostic fee and did the repair yourself? I Replaced them Just because I already bought them once and they wanted. 750$$ to Replace Both Rear Calipers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted November 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2021 1 minute ago, John/Horace said: If you don’t bleed out air properly pedal will always be soft. Diagonal pattern starting at passenger rear first. Small piece of clear hose on bleeder nipple will allow you to tell when no more air bubbles. Cycle parking brake during bleeding process as well. Any tiny leaks from bingo bolts will allow air back in system. Takes several cycles of bleeding to remove air. Abs sometimes needs pulsing via hand held diagnostic unit if it has a lot of trapped air. But usually it’s ok. Yes I am aware. the bleeding procedure on journeys are LR,RF,RR,LF. witch I have done multiple times, also have done the automated bleeding procedure many times. have done a pressure test over night and it did not move when checked in the morning. I have Put close to 5Gallons of fluid in this system bleeding the brakes. I am positive there is no air getting into the system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5rebel9 Posted November 24, 2021 Report Share Posted November 24, 2021 I thought I had suggested this before.... A sinking brake pedal after replacing and bleeding of all these parts replaced would leave me to a faulty master cylinder(I know, already replaced) or a problem in the power assist system. Try unplugging the electrical power brake vacuum pump mounted on the engine and see if pedal stays hard and "high"(little pedal movement). And also check the hose(s) from the booster to the pump and engine, I believe there is a Y connector and hose too another area on the engine for vacuum. MY this is turning out to be quite a MYSTERIOUS problem to track down! Hang in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellinisAuto Posted November 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 hours ago, 5rebel9 said: I thought I had suggested this before.... A sinking brake pedal after replacing and bleeding of all these parts replaced would leave me to a faulty master cylinder(I know, already replaced) or a problem in the power assist system. Try unplugging the electrical power brake vacuum pump mounted on the engine and see if pedal stays hard and "high"(little pedal movement). And also check the hose(s) from the booster to the pump and engine, I believe there is a Y connector and hose too another area on the engine for vacuum. MY this is turning out to be quite a MYSTERIOUS problem to track down! Hang in there. Yes master replaced twice now. i have unplugged the hose to the electronic vacuum pump and no difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5rebel9 Posted November 24, 2021 Report Share Posted November 24, 2021 54 minutes ago, BellinisAuto said: Yes master replaced twice now. i have unplugged the hose to the electronic vacuum pump and no difference. And it is not leaking/losing brake fluid thru all this time? Has a high level scanner that can engage the ABS pump for system bleed been used, as you posted before of ABS unit also being replaced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted November 25, 2021 Report Share Posted November 25, 2021 Roackauto lists the pump and it’s out of stock. Little over a $100, not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2late4u Posted November 28, 2021 Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 just a thought you did use the tool to ROTATE the rear caliper piston back in instead of using a c clamp like it is done on the front caliper piston????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted November 28, 2021 Report Share Posted November 28, 2021 Only way on these rear calipers is to rotate pistons inward. Either needle nose pliers or a rear caliper retracting tool. Smear of sylglide on inside of rubber boot so rubber doesn’t tear helps. But he said calipers are new anyway and rotors are locking properly with pedal pressure. So much work on system makes it tricky to find source of problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sppmaster Posted February 1, 2023 Report Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) On 14.10.2021 г. at 7:41 PM, BellinisAuto said: And of course all this work is no charge to my grandmother. Any help would be appreciated! I regret that I see your post so late. I don't know if I can help you seeing all that you've done but maybe you can check my posts here on this thread. Starting from the first one and reading to the last posts. Maybe you can try to repeat my tests just in order to try to pinpoint to the core of the issue. Quote In my case I've disassembled the whole braking system and I've used a software tool to monitor the pressure inside the brake system while I've performed thoroughly various tests on the braking system. I've used plugs to block all the brake lines one by one and I've found out that the main culprit for the low and spongy brake pedal was the front right brake apparatus. Once the front right brake line was blocked with a plug the brake pedal immediately returned to its perfect old behaviour and feeling (very firm and within its normal working range movement). I've performed air bleeding several times using the conventional method and additionally I've used the scan tool to perform ABS air bleeding. There wasn't any air inside the brake system and nothing changed. The only thing I couldn't do was to completely disassemble the brake apparatus because I didn't have a spare one and I needed a working car (not stationary one). I don't know what's wrong with that particular brake apparatus, but once I realized that the brake system functioned normally (no pressure loss, brake fluid leakage, etc) I stopped rushing into the eventual brake apparatus change or its complete disassembly. I am really amazed by the complete incompetence of the dealer service shop mechanics. Edited February 1, 2023 by sppmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.