BRAKE PEDAL BLEEDS TO FLOOR WITH OMPLETE NEW BRAKE SYSTEM

[BellinisAuto]

Ok so hoping for some help. Grandmother has a 2011 journey AWD with disc brakes all around. they were in need of rear brakes. so she took it to her local shop intown. the did the work and when she got the vehicle back the brake pedal would bleed to the ground but it did have brakes. She took it back to the shop.

 

*Will do My Best To Explain Everything*

 

 

Once they had it back the figured it just needs to be bleed, (Didn't work)

Second they replaced the master cylinder factoring in the symptoms. (Didn't work)

Third they couldn't figure it out themselves so they towed it to Chrysler dealer and had them Diagnose, Was told it was the rear right caliper,

Replaced it and same issue continued. 

They Gave up and told her sorry.

 

Week later she brought it to my shop. 

First Looking over everything that had previously been done, in my opinion master cylinder did not look new, (Northern IL Vehicle you can tell if something is new or been effected be our Salty Winters)

So replaced master cylinder with new, Bleed the system and seemed to have a hard firm pedal with engine off and engine running. 

Great figured it out and decided to Drive it for a day home. 

Started it up to go to work the next day and pedal goes to floor. BUT IT STILL HAS BREAKS, just bleeds to the floor

Get to the shop and start some diagnosing. 

Removed all wheels and did a brake test. 

Found front right caliper frozen, replaced both front calipers. 

After bleeding found right rear caliper is extending and then retracting completely with the release of brake pedal.

Replaced left rear caliper. So all Calipers have Been Replaced 

For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster. 

Bleed system and Pedal still Bleeds to the floor but it has brakes. I'm Stumped

Sense the rest of the brake system has been replaced I went ahead and replaced the abs Pump/control Module. 

Bleeding the Brake System Over and Over mechanically and electronically still no difference in pedal. 

Checked all Brake System Fuses, All Good. 

 

And of course all this work is no charge to my grandmother. 

 

Any help would be appreciated! 

 

 

[5rebel9]

WOW! I feel for you, getting same problem someone else has already messed with. Been there.

Not a lot left except to check the electric pump for the power brakes and may have a shot brake booster. The 3.6 uses a pump and not manifold vacuum. I have not run into this situation yet, but there are a lot of posts here of same problem and on another forum for Dodge cars that use the same system for brakes that I frequent, most do not respond to the actual fix other than figuring out improper bleeding. From your posting of talents, I'd assume you did it right.

[2late4u]

when  you find out your fix to this problem,,,, PLEASE report back on it,as said this has been asked here before but they never come back to report the fix,so no help for the next person

For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster.   BY this  do you mean the rubber hoses from the brake lines to the calipers? some have found the rubber hoses being pinched due to rust between the hose and the clamp holding it down

[John/Horace]

Air has to be getting back in system some how. 2011 so maybe a corroded line with a pin hole. Bleed it again and leave the wheels off overnight on a hoist.  Press pedal in the morning and have someone try and turn each wheel with brakes on.

If there is not at a visible leak, then wheel or wheels that can still be turned are allowing air back in. Examine every inch of metal line on that wheel.
 

I like nickel copper line for replacement, easiest to work with. Are you using a pressure bleeder or just manual bleeding.?
 

Edited October 14, 2021 by John/Horace

[BellinisAuto]

17 hours ago, 2late4u said:

when  you find out your fix to this problem,,,, PLEASE report back on it,as said this has been asked here before but they never come back to report the fix,so no help for the next person

For the hell of it I replaced all soft lines and brake booster.   BY this  do you mean the rubber hoses from the brake lines to the calipers? some have found the rubber hoses being pinched due to rust between the hose and the clamp holding it down

 Yes I replaced all soft lines to the calipers. i will be looking into the vacuum pump today 

 

[BellinisAuto]

16 hours ago, John/Horace said:

Air has to be getting back in system some how. 2011 so maybe a corroded line with a pin hole. Bleed it again and leave the wheels off overnight on a hoist.  Press pedal in the morning and have someone try and turn each wheel with brakes on.

If there is not at a visible leak, then wheel or wheels that can still be turned are allowing air back in. Examine every inch of metal line on that wheel.
 

I like nickel copper line for replacement, easiest to work with. Are you using a pressure bleeder or just manual bleeding.?
 

I have used manual, pressure and electronic bleeding procedures, al hard lines have been looked over and are in immaculate condition. I have already let it sit over night many times to hopefully find a drip somewhere and no luck. And all wheel will continue to lock up as they should.  what is puzzling is that when the the engine is off and hitting the brake pedal it is stiff like it should be. even when you give it a day it is still stiff, it will not soften or move as if there was air still in the system or getting into the system.   

[BellinisAuto]

So got to the point where I was just scratching my head, so I took it into town to the Chrysler dealer. Told them everything I did and what its doing. they had it for about 2 weeks before I got a call. the told me it was the rear calipers, witch is weird because I just replaced all calipers with new. not reman. so I took what they said and warrantied them out and no difference. I'm at a lost and not sure what to do next...

 

[2late4u]

so did they replace them? or did you just pay them for a diagnostic fee and did the repair yourself?

[John/Horace]

Have you tried cycling parking brake a bit, between bleeding cycles. I replaced rear calipers on a 2014, took a lot of time to get air out. They don’t like pads being at 1/4  material wear left, , new pads strangely helped pedal height and feel.

 

Abs sometimes needs pulsing via hand held diagnostic unit if it has a lot of trapped air. But usually it’s ok.

Abs pump could be some how allowing air in. Dealer not necessarily being straight with you.

Edited November 23, 2021 by John/Horace

[BellinisAuto]

33 minutes ago, 2late4u said:

so did they replace them? or did you just pay them for a diagnostic fee and did the repair yourself?

I Replaced them Just because I already bought them once and they wanted. 750$$ to Replace Both Rear Calipers 

[BellinisAuto]

1 minute ago, John/Horace said:

If you don’t bleed out air properly pedal will always be soft.

Diagonal pattern starting at passenger rear first. Small piece of clear hose on bleeder nipple will allow you to tell when no more air bubbles. Cycle parking brake during bleeding process as well. Any tiny leaks from bingo bolts will allow air back in system.

Takes several cycles of bleeding to remove air.

 

Abs sometimes needs pulsing via hand held diagnostic unit if it has a lot of trapped air. But usually it’s ok.

Yes I am aware. the bleeding procedure on journeys are LR,RF,RR,LF. witch I have done multiple times, also have done the automated bleeding procedure many times. have done a pressure test over night and it did not move when checked in the morning. I have Put close to 5Gallons of fluid in this system bleeding the brakes. I am positive there is no air getting into the system    

[5rebel9]

I thought I had suggested this before....

   A sinking brake pedal after replacing and bleeding of all these parts replaced would leave me to a faulty master cylinder(I know, already replaced) or a problem in the power assist system. 

   Try unplugging the electrical power brake vacuum pump mounted on the engine and see if pedal stays hard and "high"(little pedal movement). And also check the hose(s) from the booster to the pump and engine, I believe there is a Y connector and hose too another area on the engine for vacuum.

    MY this is turning out to be quite a MYSTERIOUS problem to track down!   

     Hang in there.   

[BellinisAuto]

2 hours ago, 5rebel9 said:

I thought I had suggested this before....

   A sinking brake pedal after replacing and bleeding of all these parts replaced would leave me to a faulty master cylinder(I know, already replaced) or a problem in the power assist system. 

   Try unplugging the electrical power brake vacuum pump mounted on the engine and see if pedal stays hard and "high"(little pedal movement). And also check the hose(s) from the booster to the pump and engine, I believe there is a Y connector and hose too another area on the engine for vacuum.

    MY this is turning out to be quite a MYSTERIOUS problem to track down!   

     Hang in there.   

Yes master replaced twice now. i have unplugged the hose to the electronic vacuum pump and no difference. 

[5rebel9]

54 minutes ago, BellinisAuto said:

Yes master replaced twice now. i have unplugged the hose to the electronic vacuum pump and no difference. 

And it is not leaking/losing brake fluid thru all this time?

 Has a high level scanner that can engage the ABS pump for system bleed been used, as you posted before of ABS unit also being replaced?

[John/Horace]

Roackauto lists the pump and it’s out of stock. Little over a $100, not cheap.

 

[2late4u]

just a thought you did use the tool to ROTATE the rear caliper piston  back in instead of using a c clamp like it is done on the front caliper piston?????

[John/Horace]

Only way on these rear calipers is to rotate pistons inward. Either needle nose pliers or a rear caliper retracting tool.

Smear of sylglide on inside of rubber boot so rubber doesn’t tear helps. But he said calipers are new anyway and  rotors are locking properly with pedal pressure. So much work on system makes it tricky to find source of problem.

[sppmaster]

On 14.10.2021 г. at 7:41 PM, BellinisAuto said:

And of course all this work is no charge to my grandmother. 

Any help would be appreciated! 

 

 

I regret that I see your post so late.

I don't know if I can help you seeing all that you've done but maybe you can check my posts here on this thread. Starting from the first one and reading to the last posts.

Maybe you can try to repeat my tests just in order to try to pinpoint to the core of the issue. 

Quote

In my case I've disassembled the whole braking system and I've used a software tool to monitor the pressure inside the brake system while I've performed thoroughly various tests on the braking system. I've used plugs to block all the brake lines one by one and I've found out that the main culprit for the low and spongy brake pedal was the front right brake apparatus. Once the front right brake line was blocked with a plug the brake pedal immediately returned to its perfect old behaviour and feeling (very firm and within its normal working range movement). I've performed air bleeding several times using the conventional method and additionally I've used the scan tool to perform ABS air bleeding. There wasn't any air inside the brake system and nothing changed. The only thing I couldn't do was to completely disassemble the brake apparatus because I didn't have a spare one and I needed a working car (not stationary one). I don't know what's wrong with that particular brake apparatus, but once I realized that the brake system functioned normally (no pressure loss, brake fluid leakage, etc) I stopped rushing into the eventual brake apparatus change or its complete disassembly.

I am really amazed by the complete incompetence of the dealer service shop mechanics.

Edited February 1, 2023 by sppmaster

[luzmina]

Has anyone found a solution to the brake pedal sinking to the floor? I have a 2018 (2.4) and a 2013 (2.4), both of them have the issue, the 2018 is all original brake parts, brake system has never been touch, and does it less than the 2013 with new pads, new OEM vacuum booster, new OEM master cylinder and the ABS module replaced.

[John/Horace]

Most likely a bad caliper (partly seized) and trapped air not gettting removed from system. The vacuum booster pump isn’t common failure. ABS unit is more common…but it’s fault lite on dash, not actual problems like soft pedal. Internal electrical issue.
 

I would raise car on four jack stands. Remove tires and put few lug nuts back on to keep rotor square in case it has slight sideways movement. Have some one get in car and press brake pedal down as far as possible and hold in place (no pumping pedal). Then use a pry bar across each of the rotor studs (where nuts are to avoid thread damage) and see if you are able to turn rotors. All should be locked without allowing movement.

 

Any wheel that isn’t has an issue. Brake bleeder screw loose slightly then put on 2-3” length of clear hose, open bleeder a little more to allow for fluid to flow and watch hose for air bubbles. Light tapping on caliper allows air to go to top of casting. Do a second time to make sure no more air. Catch fluid with a rag, avoid getting on painted surfaces.

 

If you can’t clear the air, that caliper is partly seized and needs rebuilding or replacing. Rear calipers have  parking brake built in, they can have return arm not fully retracting by the visible spring. Pads on that side will have accelerated wear. Remanufactured or new caliper fixes it. Cycling parking brake during bleeder process is needed to properly clear air. At least in my experience. Always cross bleed, start with passenger rear first, the longest line, then driver front.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sppmaster]

On 6/8/2025 at 11:26 PM, John/Horace said:

Most likely a bad caliper (partly seized) and trapped air not gettting removed from system. The vacuum booster pump isn’t common failure. ABS unit is more common…but it’s fault lite on dash, not actual problems like soft pedal. Internal electrical issue.

Don't want to argue or disagree with your opinion but there is a really big brake issue that even the poor dealer service can't manage appropriately. I've changed all four brake apparatus doing an upgrade to the bigger brakes. And yet the soft and spongy brake pedal is still there.

 

On 6/8/2025 at 11:26 PM, John/Horace said:

Always cross bleed, start with passenger rear first, the longest line, then driver front.

I made several brake bleeding procedures (including ABS too) with the scan tool and I spent a lot of my spare time and money and nothing. I was following the right bleeding procedure - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2018/RCRIT-18V523-9068.pdf

and the right bleeding order is this:

• Left Rear Wheel
• Right Front Wheel
• Right Rear Wheel
• Left Front Wheel

because the longest brake line path is from the brake master cylinder (on the left side) then to the ABS module (on the right side) and then the brake line is going form the right front side to the left rear side (left rear brake).

The worst part of this is the fact that my brakes were simply perfect when the car was new from the factory before the dealer workshop changed the rear brake pads and the brake fluid and then I got the spongy sh** pedal.

And yes I was able to test a lot of these vehicles and I'm amazed how many of them have spongy brake pedal. And yes I tried a few that had no such issue.

[Locosiete]

6 hours ago, sppmaster said:

Don't want to argue or disagree with your opinion but there is a really big brake issue that even the poor dealer service can't manage appropriately. I've changed all four brake apparatus doing an upgrade to the bigger brakes. And yet the soft and spongy brake pedal is still there.

 

I made several brake bleeding procedures (including ABS too) with the scan tool and I spent a lot of my spare time and money and nothing. I was following the right bleeding procedure - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2018/RCRIT-18V523-9068.pdf

and the right bleeding order is this:

• Left Rear Wheel
• Right Front Wheel
• Right Rear Wheel
• Left Front Wheel

because the longest brake line path is from the brake master cylinder (on the left side) then to the ABS module (on the right side) and then the brake line is going form the right front side to the left rear side (left rear brake).

The worst part of this is the fact that my brakes were simply perfect when the car was new from the factory before the dealer workshop changed the rear brake pads and the brake fluid and then I got the spongy sh** pedal.

And yes I was able to test a lot of these vehicles and I'm amazed how many of them have spongy brake pedal. And yes I tried a few that had no such issue.

 

Watch a video some time back about this problem specially on the Journey. The problem was the brake lines were compressing and not allowing the air to fully bleed out. Not saying that is your problem but something to consider 

[John/Horace]

There is no big brake bleeding problem. You just have a crappy dealership. Bleeding all four wheel drum brakes…like I did 40 yrs ago on 1960 VW beetles is hard. Newer cars are easier. Even gravity bleeding without even pulsing the abs system works if you know how to do it. 
 

Changing all the calipers must have introduced a new problem. Remanufactured calipers are sometimes faulty. Brass washer on flex line not seated properly can allow air in. Flex hoses can collapse internally. Etc.

 

If you followed my instructions you would have found the caliper that is acting up. Which cross bleeding pattern you use …really doesn’t matter much.

 

 

 

 

[sppmaster]

On 6/14/2025 at 7:58 AM, John/Horace said:

There is no big brake bleeding problem

Probably I was misunderstood or I improperly used the phrase "big brake issue". I wanted to say that the issue was big (considerable), especially if the same spongy brake pedal could be seen on so many cars. I've personally seen the same spongy brake pedal going to the floor on more than a dozen of these cars (including other brands).

Otherwise my new bigger brake apparatuses as well as the older smaller size ones were completely OK and there was no any issue bleeding them. You can see my other post where everything was dissembled and tested. 

https://www.dodgejourneyforum.com/topic/11082-soft-brake-pedal-bad-abs-unit/?do=findComment&comment=93770

 

Edited Sunday at 12:50 PM by sppmaster