2011 Pentastar Journey. Continued build up of air in coolant

[warlox]

Sorry guys this will be a little long, I have searched the forum, Google etc etc... No solution found. Not making any sense at all.

2011 3.6l 180k miles, automatic trans AWD

Last winter engine seemed to run in normal operating temp. range, but I never needed to monitor it real close because I was having no indications I had a problem. I knew I had a coolant leak because I could smell it at times, but that's it. I had an extended warranty so I took it to the shop This that I had a zero deduct on.  They replaced the water pump and radiator.

This was late spring, just as the temps were starting to get hot in my area. Started noticing the temp would act weird and climb under load at times, or sometimes at stops, drove for several months and kind of learned how to keep the temp between 210 and 225 by the way I would drive. Sometimes I would run the heater to help bring temp down, but noticed I had little to no heat from the two passenger front vents and only cold from all rear vents.I'd go the bleeder screw and find air in system, I would bleed the air and could get heat again. After driving for several days I'd have to do it all over again. I played this game all summer. about 45 days ago, the engine overheated  to the point I had a chime to let me know and the gauge was solid red. I shut it down, bled the air and was able to get it home. After this I could drive a few miles but at stops the temp would start rising fast at stops.

I ran a chemical block test and came up negative, I didn't trust that so I found my 5 gas analyzer and still shows no combustion gasses in coolant. I replaced the thermostat and crossover but nothing changed.

Now, I worked at automotive shops my entire career. I have worked for Toyota GM, Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Subaru, Kia and  Cadillac and I also worked for an independent shop for 10 years. But I was lost so I took it to a shop I worked at and they gave up. They wanted to pull the intake to run a cylinder leak down test, but I can run this engine at wide open throttle and once  thermostat opens and air is pouring into the overflow reservoir I still get absolutely no color change on my chemical test and no indications with my gas analyzer .What happens exactly   is that I can bleed the air and engine will be ok for approximately 10 miles the at temp will climb rapidly to overheat. If I open the bleeder with engine hot I get nothing but steam out of bleeder for  several minutes before I start getting liquid coolant. Still have consistent problem      with no heat from passenger front vents or rear vents. I checked all vents door actuators with my scanner and all actuators are working. Back flushed heater core and i have good flow and no debris coming. If I park on my steep driveway and bleed the cooling system over and over I can get good heat from all vents, until I drive those 10 miles and it all starts all over again.

The only theory I have is that every time I was bleeding air, sometimes at car washes in middle of night. I would rinse the engine off real good to try and get the coolant off my belt. The engine is spotless clean and it kind of seems that the cleaner the engine got the worse my air problem in coolant got. I am not very familiar with the schematics of how the coolant system works on this engine.  It seems like when the engine is cool and running that I have solid coolant from bleeder, but as soon as the thermostat opens I get air almost immediately and the further I drive the worse it gets until it's just steam for minutes. I don't know if there is some place in the intake plenum that could be acting as a check valve and letting air into the system but not leaking externally? 

I thought the air was originating from the rear heating system so I blocked the rear off completely  and nothing changed, in fact it feels like it got worse. So I got rid of my bypass. then I took off the overflow reservoir and used JB Plastic weld and went around every seam on the reservoir and also anywhere that even looked like it might be a hairline crack and it changed nothing. 

PLEASE PLEASE. I have always been good at finding answers as a technician and for other technicians online. In fact I was always called the search guru at every shop I've worked at. When another technician would have a weird problem and couldn't find his answer my boss would ask me "To do the Voodoo that I do" and I can usually find the problem, but I have never ever seen anything like this. I need this car to last me another year.  If you have a solution or suggestion I would appreciate it more then I can express. I will also spend time on this forum daily to help others solve problems they're having. I reciprocate as much as I can.

 

[John/Horace]

Seems like a very frustrating problem.  UV die in the glycol and look for the first leak/drip location can be very time consuming.

 

 

Coolant cross over pipe is mentioned as a problem on the 3.6 engines. Dorman makes a solid aluminum unit, same as the problematic oil heat exchanger on top of the engine. Even the heat exchanger could have a micro crack and be allowing in air.

There is aluminum version of this as well. If it’s still the factory unit, give it a close look, very awkward location to inspect unfortunately. 

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,2011,journey,3.6l+v6,3015205,cooling+system,thermostat+housing+/+water+outlet,10337

 

 

 

Lots of chepo  thermostats around now. Hate to over pay…but the oem dealer stat probably US made. Very critical component on aluminum engines especially. If you drain it again, something to think about using. Good luck.

[2late4u]

so i assume the extended warranty is over?

 

[warlox]

Yea, I took it in at the very end of the warranty. I have been keeping an eye on the trans-axle and the engine oil temps and they never seem to rise with coolant temp. I'm not real familiar withe this heat exchanger on the oil filter housing. Is there coolant flowing through that thing?

[John/Horace]

Yes. The Germans use them on most of their vehicles, the 3.6 is from Daimler Chrysler era. . It’s an aluminum plate heat exchanger. So oil on one side of plate, glycol on the other. It’s between the valleys on V6 engines usually. Base has 10-12 oring mounted right on top of engine. Oil filter is also part of this assembly.

 

Problem is the aluminum plate pack is mounted to a plastic housing that has threaded in oil pressure and engine temp sensors.

Theory is it warps with age and either orings fail and start leaking oil or glycol;  or housing develops a crack etc. There are cast aluminum aftermarket versions made now that appear to last better. 

 

Good news on compression gas tests; heads or  head gasket issue would be even bigger pain. Either a gasket or a small crack in something seems to be letting air into cooling system. Oil and glycol temp not  following engine also points to this.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by John/Horace
Accuracy

[warlox]

The more look at this and see whats happening I think this heat ex changer may be my issue.  It makes sense. I have found that right in that area I can hear coolant boiling when I shut the engine off. This problem wasn't so bad, but every time I boiled over and got coolant on my  belt I would take the car to a car-wash. The intake area  was full of old sludged up oil. I cleaned it every time I washed the engine down. Now its only fresh oil from the valve cover gasket and probably this cooler. I think that old sludge was probably sealing  that cooler  and once I cleaned it all off all that old oil my problem got exponentially worse. I think  I will buy the crossover and cooler in the aluminum, pull the plenum and replace those valve cover gaskets, check my sparkies  and put this beast back together. Honestly it has been a very good vehicle until this issue started.  I need to throw some quick struts on the rear and replace the driveshaft as it is in rough condition. Anyone know where I can get a GOOD deal on a driveshaft?

It is going to be a few weeks before i can make time to pull this plenum , but I will keep you guys posted. 

I can't express my appreciation  for your help with this issue. I have worked  on cars my entire life and have never dealt with anything quit like this. I am not sure I like the engine design, but performance has been very good. This things closing in on 200k miles very fast, because I do Uber and Lyft at night  and I have put about 88k miles on it in the last 8 months. I b but Uber wont send me XL rides because they say I have to have 7 factory installed seat belts, which It do , but Uber's worthless "Diamond Driver support" are not smart people. I send them photos of all the seat belts and get the same response every time.  SORRY about the long dissertation and I should not get started on Uber because I get really pissed off when I do.

Once I fix this stuff , if it corrects my concern , I will buy you all a beer.....

Thanks,

        Warloxian

[2late4u]

putting rear struts are a big deal on removing the insides to get to the bolts check out youtube for info on that, hope you get this fixed ..as far as the drive shaft check with the scrap/junk yards or a u-pull it yard for a used one....good luck

[warlox]

If anyone is still reading this. I installed a new alum crossover and replaced the oil cooler. Absolutely nothing has changed.   Still building up air and spewing all my coolant out the overflow reservoir. I AM SOOOOO LOST HERE.  I do not know what to do. I'm dumping money into this POS , I have no combustion gasses in the coolant. Radiator, thermostat, water pump, oil cooler have all been changed. I also ran a cylinder leak down test when I had the intake off and have no loss of pressure in any cylinder. I also took a scope and looked into the cylinders just to see if any of the cylinders are clean from coolnt/water washing the carbon off and see no signs of coolant/water intrusion in the cylindersI even dumped a bottle of mechanic in a can (Bars leak) headgasket sealer just in case and it changed nothing.

I never had a problem (besides a leak) until I had a shop install the radiator and water pump last spring. I am still trying to figure out which side of the thermostat is the pressure side?

When I drive the car and I see the temp starting to rise I can open the bleeder valve on top of t-stat. Nothing but air comes out. When I look at the overflow reservoir the small hose that hooks to back of reservoir, called the coolant inlet hose , is just pouring in coolant mixed with air. WHERE IS THE AIR COMING FROM? ANYONE?  I also had crimped off the lines that run to the rear heater because I was trying to eliminate the rear as source of air. That didn't change a thing. I am left with only one idea. Does anyone think that the radiator may have some type of leak in it that's allowing air into the system? Whatever is causing this must be on a non pressure side of the cooling system I would assume. this system builds a lot of pressure when the airs coming in and under normal circumstances, with a problem like this you would assume that the headgasket is leaking and that the cylinder pressure is higher then the pressure on cooling system , but since I have no combustion gasses in the coolant , but I've tested both with a chemical test and a 5 gas analyzer , also adding head gasket sealer,  and i have nothing at all to indicate (besides the air) that I have a bad headgasket. Also with the head gasket sealer in the engine, if I am pulling air into the system then that means the sealer is not able to force itself into a leak. Maybe when the engine is cooling the sealer might be drawn into a leak? Whatever is causing this , it's acting like a check valve and only letting air flow into the system, but not leaking externally at all?

Someone please tell me my logic is incorrect and help me fix this car. I have worked on cars my entire life and have never seen anything like this. I also took it into a shop I used to work at and they have thrown their hands in the air.

[14WhiteRTRallye]

What is the fan doing when it gets hot? Have u used an infrared gun? Seems like some clues with no heat that the gun could track down. Also before & after rad etc.

[5rebel9]

48 minutes ago, 14WhiteRTRallye said:

What is the fan doing when it gets hot? Have u used an infrared gun? Seems like some clues with no heat that the gun could track down. Also before & after rad etc.

Sounds like a great way to track temp differences around the engine! Also I trust the OP is NOT just "quick filling" and then hard running the engine. That's the surest way for an incomplete coolant fill and air entrapment through the motor and heater lines.  I fill, then light idle run till warm then shut down for an hour or so and then top up as needed THEN take a light throttle short drive, let cool off and recheck/top off again.

[warlox]

Ok, I used my heat gun at the very beginning of this problem, but not since. As far as the bleed procedure. No, I did not bleed the coolant like you suggested. I will try that today. It still seems like the air builds up because I am not burning coolant and I'm not leaking coolant anymore, since I replaced the cooler. The only reason I am going through coolant is because the air builds up and spews the coolant out of the recovery reservoir. I really appreciate everyone's input and assistance. I am at a loss and I really need this vehicle drive-able

[warlox]

I also have another question. My driveway is about 14 degrees , would it be beneficial to have the nose end parked up while bleeding the coolant? It seems like we had a few cars over the years that we had to put the nose end up to bleed the cooling system? I do not know why all the manufactures went to this sealed type of system with the radiator not being the highest point in the cooling system?

[2late4u]

you sound very competent on working on engines but you say......... I am still trying to figure out which side of the thermostat is the pressure side,,,are you replacing the whole thermostat ,or are you just buying the actual thermostat and reinstalling it into the plastic housing,,,is it possible you installed it backwards? just trying to help..not being hateful

[warlox]

No, The entire housing was replaced twice actually. My question about pressure side of thermostat was mis-worded. It helps when I have my glasses on when I type. I have went back to proofread somethings I've posted and can't believe what I typed at times. I did that on a customers repair order one time, when I was a young man years ago,  and when you read it, it sounded very dirty and I got in trouble from my service manager because my glasses were broken that day.

[John/Horace]

Wow, what a pain this sounds like. How about a cold pressure test for leaks with one of those hand held testers to pressurize system without car running. Something has to be allowing in air somewhere. With the engine this clean, a small drip should be easier to spot.

 

When I replaced my 3.6  water pump a few years ago because I had a drip around the front of the engine close to drive pulley,   the gasket turned out to be a  25 thou aluminum shim. My leak was from a tiny missing section of one part of the alum gasket.  Not from the pump bearing seal like is normal. The pump is very solid and oversized, probably will go 250k miles. Installed new pump anyway, being in that deep.

     I actually bought the very expensive $40dealer alum shim gasket to replace the bad one.  The one that came with new pump was ratty and bent a bit. Didn’t want to take a chance. Aftermarket was only pump I could get at the time. 
I have even seen a bad spring clamp allow air into a cooling system on a Taurus I had. Took a very long time to figure it out.   Start with pressure testing system.

Edited December 27, 2022 by John/Horace

[warlox]

I am trying to bleed the air again. My driveway is about 14 degrees so I have nose up. It's usually the only time I can get hot air from the passenger side front vents. I just brought engine up to operating temp. It seems to stabilize around 212 then drops about 4 degrees.

At 150 degrees on temp gauge I have 79 at the front of both heads, tstat housing 44, upper hose 26, lower hose 36 top of radiator 24, bottom of radiator 26 and I have 59 at the overflow bottle where the small return hose comes back into the reservoir.

 

At engine temp 200 I have 129 r/f head, 137 l/f head, 68 at tstat (right on top of bleeder valve), 37 upper hose, 60 lower hose, 56 top of radiator, 53 bottom of radiator and 100 at the over flow bottle.

 I opened the bleeder valve and got steam for 15 seconds and then a solid stream of coolant with no noticeable air bubbles. Since temp stabilized I have shut down engine.   I will let it cool for an hour then will re-bleed,  warm back to op temp and recheck temp readings. PS: I have ran a pressure test on this engine hot and cold with no loss. I have also had the system under vacuum hot and cold and I don't seem to loose any vacuum???

PS: I have ran a pressure test on this engine hot and cold with no loss. I have also had the system under vacuum hot and cold and I don't seem to loose any vacuum???  Also under all conditions with engine running, pressure and vacuum were steady with no fluctuations

 

If anyone has any suggestions for anyplace else a temp reading might help that would be cool. At this point I am still only getting cool air from pass side front vents. My past experience has been that after several air bleeds I will start getting very  hot air from all vents.  When I am bleeding on flat ground I am not able to get warm air from pass front vents at all.  If you guys can help me figure this out we could help others with this same issue. My Googling has come up with several similar concerns from other owners, but when I read through the entire process, from individuals, independent repair shops and dealerships,  the process seems to just stop with absolutely no solutions. This doesn't seem to be a huge problem for a lot of owners, but there are enough unsolved cases just like mine to make me think this is one of those "going to find something that no one would ever suspect as the solution"

 

We had a Ford Tempo (I think) , customers concern was that at night he could see a blue light flashing under the car at times. We had the car for weeks, never found a blue light or any electrical problems. Called customer to have him pick it up the next day. My boss was pulling the car into the bullpen , was winter so it was already dark and I was waiting to lock the shop when I seen a blue light flashing under the car. I whistled at the boss and had him bring it back into the shop. We put it on the lift and started car, there was a massive blue spark going from the frame to a power steering line with an inline filter. We checked every single circuit on that car. Everything was fine. No wiring or electrical problems at all. We weren't even charging for diag time any longer because it was just bothering us too much. We had to figure it out. I got permission from the customer to remove the power steering line to see if there were any hidden weird electrical wires built into the hose. None were found. Because that filter housing had a pinhole right where the spark was going to, we cut the filter housing in half to inspect. We found that the housing was lined with magnets, the filter was held in place by these metal ears, the ears were not holding the filter tightly, so at times , once the power steering fluid would start going through that line the filter would start spinning in the housing, creating a generator. The spark was not going from the frame to the filter, like it looked like, but rather had burnt a hold through the filter housing and was going to the frame. Never seen anything like it. No one in their right mind would have diagnosed this any differently then we did. I suspect, my air problem will be something similar ???

 

[John/Horace]

Definitely a weird problem,  Had a Taurus years ago with a a strange small coolant loss problem for quite a while. No air going in and no visible leak. A few months later I swapped out all the cooling system clamps with new gear clamps. Leak fixed,  one old gear clamp was stripped and although screw was tight, hose could easily slide off. At idle there was no drip; had to rev up engine to make a tiny drip.  Hoses were also older and not very flexible as well.

 

Maybe check every hose connection with a tug/twist.  Look for a poor hose connection. Cooler hoses might be tricky to check on drivers side, underneath.

Low heat on passenger side I think is a separate item. Pull the filter behind the glove box so you can clearly see the blender actuator on the right side. They have a tendency to stick sometimes. Closed and your windows fog, open and the fresh cold air causes heat loss. Each time car is turned on and off, it cycles to vent car interior.  If it doesn’t do this , poke at it to free it up. It needs to be closed for proper passenger heat.  Very awkward access to screws to change out actuator.

 

 

[LuisGomez]

On 4/1/2023 at 1:28 PM, warlox said:

I am trying to bleed the air again. My driveway is about 14 degrees so I have nose up. It's usually the only time I can get hot air from the passenger side front vents. I just brought engine up to operating temp. It seems to stabilize around 212 then drops about 4 degrees.

At 150 degrees on temp gauge I have 79 at the front of both heads, tstat housing 44, upper hose 26, lower hose 36 top of radiator 24, bottom of radiator 26 and I have 59 at the overflow bottle where the small return hose comes back into the reservoir.

 

At engine temp 200 I have 129 r/f head, 137 l/f head, 68 at tstat (right on top of bleeder valve), 37 upper hose, 60 lower hose, 56 top of radiator, 53 bottom of radiator and 100 at the over flow bottle.

 I opened the bleeder valve and got steam for 15 seconds and then a solid stream of coolant with no noticeable air bubbles. Since temp stabilized I have shut down engine.   I will let it cool for an hour then will re-bleed,  warm back to op temp and recheck temp readings. PS: I have ran a pressure test on this engine hot and cold with no loss. I have also had the system under vacuum hot and cold and I don't seem to loose any vacuum???

PS: I have ran a pressure test on this engine hot and cold with no loss. I have also had the system under vacuum hot and cold and I don't seem to loose any vacuum???  Also under all conditions with engine running, pressure and vacuum were steady with no fluctuations

 

I have the same problem. Have you solved it?

Help please

Edited March 24, 2023 by LuisGomez

[tim ferrell]

has anyone solved this problem . i have the same thing on a 2013 ram wih a 3.6.  fixed all the leaks .it holds pressure all night. no air coming into the funnel when cold.I do have the thermostat out because i am waitingb on a new one. after it warms up to about 80 deg cel. air comes into the funnel when i rev the engine a bit.