Diagnosing and Repairing Binding Noise on Hard turns - Thumping noise on Upshift

[ttxi475]

Hello all, 

 

We purchased a 2015 Dodge Journey R/T with 73,xxx miles a couple months ago. At the time we purchased it, we did not hear the noise it was making.

 

In my quest to fix this issue. I am documenting my findings here.

 

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2015 Dodge Journey R/T - 75,xxx Miles

 

Symptoms:

- Hard left and right turns causes binding (metal creaking noises (tick tick tick tick tick)). The noise can be amplified by applying more throttle on these turns.
- After the turn is completed and when the car upshifts, a loud thump/clunk is heard from the rear (driveline stress is unwinding during the upshift)

 

When accelerating hard from a dead stop in a straight line, no metal creaking noises are thumps were observed.

 

I believe the metal creaking noises are from the clutch plates inside of the rear viscous coupler slipping. I did not observe the binding being unwounded through the tires. I believe the rear viscous coupler is not 100% locked up since enough driveline stress will eventually slip the clutch plates and not unload it on the tires.

Possible Causes:

The rear viscous coupler is always engaged, not allowing the front wheels to spin freely from the rear wheels. When making hard turns, the rear viscous coupler is locking the front + rear wheel engagement. This does not allow proper rotational speed variation of the front and rear wheels when making a hard left or right turn, causing the driveline to bind.

 

Something inside of the rear viscous coupler is broken and does not allow slippage. I am not sure what exactly is broken.

 

To test my initial thoughts out, I removed the center driveshaft that connects the transmission in the front of the car to the rear viscous coupler. This changes the vehicle to front wheel drive and will confirm if the issue is related to the front or rear part of the vehicle.

 

To remove the center driveshaft:

1. Remove the 3 bolts on the rear driveshaft that connects to the rear viscous coupler.

2. Remove the 8 bolts that connects the driveshaft to the front of the transmission.

3. Remove the carrier bearing holder in the center of the car (2 bolts to remove the heat shield, 2 more bolts to remove the carrier)

4. With a flat head screw driver, pop off the driveshaft from the rear viscous coupler and lower the driveshaft.

5. Tug on the driveshaft from the rear of the car to pop off the driveshaft from the front of the transmission.

 

After removing the center driveshaft and taking it for a test drive, all the noises observed earlier was gone. 

 

Since the rear differential is an OPEN differential I do not see any issues that it would be causing. I am still leaning towards the rear viscous coupler.

 

I found two different parts for the rear viscous couplers listed below.

 

One is listed for $1200: https://www.moparpartsinc.com/p/Dodge__Journey/BDORCVISCOUS-UNIT-KIT-Rear-axle-36L-V6-24V-VVT-Engine/61611628/68058066AB.html?partner=googlebase_adwords&kwd=&origin=pla&partnerDevice=c&userLocation=9019545&gclid=CjwKCAjwy42FBhB2EiwAJY0yQuJJSLp6nANUHqmbAuLoyrQhEwk5Wi7IjwAUJ8L4utfbCFJ96eciEhoCGUkQAvD_BwE

 

Another one is listed for $450: https://www.moparpartsinc.com/p/Dodge__Journey/BDORCVISCOUS-UNIT-KIT-Rear-axle-20L-I4-Turbo-Diesel-Engine/61587188/05146768AC.html?partner=googlebase_adwords&kwd=&origin=pla&partnerDevice=c&userLocation=9019559&gclid=CjwKCAjwy42FBhB2EiwAJY0yQoFBJgcZUL9wUijUBfc7KOa_fC9kPj2Jdjt3IfK7Hkq8kZpEpIEa7xoCRboQAvD_BwE

 

I believe the $1200 unit is the correct one, but the $450 also looks correct but it lists it for a 2.0 Diesel model only. However, both the pictures look alike.

 

I decided not to purchase either of those and went with a used unit from ebay that included both the rear viscous coupler and the rear differential for $450. In the event it is a failing rear diff, I would have another unit to replace it with also.

 

I am now awaiting for the unit to arrive.

 

I will post more when It arrives.

 

[John/Horace]

Thanks for the detailed info. Seems like you are on the right track. LKQ is a big auto recycler site that lots of people use, another option for the future.

 

Checking the fluid condition in rear diff and front ptu would be useful. Metal filings often show source of wear problems.

Sliding extension magnet in drain plug location after oil is out helps the search.

 

My rear diff side seals started leaking at 100k miles and had to be replaced, awkward time consuming repair.  Seals were corroded and crumbling, not physically worn out. If metal filings in your old diff and nothing in the used unit, I would use the eBay diff. I’m sure you already have that in mind.

 

Did driving without the rear drive shaft cause any dash lights to come on, like traction control. Some people with an older awd might not want to fix diff and coupler and just drive vehicle. Good info for the site. Cheers, good luck with your repair.

[NavalLacrosse]

Good luck on the repair! This is making me happy i've got the "inferior" FWD v6. 
Good luck with the diagnostic and eventual repair.

[2late4u]

1 hour ago, NavalLacrosse said:

Good luck on the repair! This is making me happy i've got the "inferior" FWD v6. 
Good luck with the diagnostic and eventual repair.

same thoughts here as well , I wouldn't buy an awd myself just more things to go wrong

[ttxi475]

The rear unit has arrived. Just 4 bolts to take off the rear viscous unit. It's pretty dirty but hoping it works.

[ttxi475]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:49 AM, John/Horace said:

Thanks for the detailed info. Seems like you are on the right track. LKQ is a big auto recycler site that lots of people use, another option for the future.

 

Checking the fluid condition in rear diff and front ptu would be useful. Metal filings often show source of wear problems.

Sliding extension magnet in drain plug location after oil is out helps the search.

 

My rear diff side seals started leaking at 100k miles and had to be replaced, awkward time consuming repair.  Seals were corroded and crumbling, not physically worn out. If metal filings in your old diff and nothing in the used unit, I would use the eBay diff. I’m sure you already have that in mind.

 

Did driving without the rear drive shaft cause any dash lights to come on, like traction control. Some people with an older awd might not want to fix diff and coupler and just drive vehicle. Good info for the site. Cheers, good luck with your repair.

No dash lights came on. It has been driving like normal so far.

[ttxi475]

5 hours ago, ttxi475 said:

No dash lights came on. It has been driving like normal so far.

I did leave the plug on the rear viscous coupler connected though. Maybe as long as that's connected, it wont throw any error lights.

[John/Horace]

Great pics, thanks for posting that, lots of people have awd. Looks like you know what your doing.

Good info, I will probably swap my driveshaft out soon,  over 200k kilometres now, may drive without for short spell.

 

All diffs etc get dirty, it’s the internal oil that matter more. Although I find my unit always has very dirty oil when dumped, compared to pick ups or Jeep diffs that I have worked on.

If it’s not triggered to engage by wheel slippage or wiper use (not confirmed) maybe no light comes on.

 

 

[ttxi475]

8 minutes ago, John/Horace said:

Great pics, thanks for posting that, lots of people have awd. Looks like you know what your doing.

Good info, I will probably swap my driveshaft out soon,  over 200k kilometres now, may drive without for short spell.

 

All diffs etc get dirty, it’s the internal oil that matter more. Although I find my unit always has very dirty oil when dumped, compared to pick ups or Jeep diffs that I have worked on.

If it’s not triggered to engage by wheel slippage or wiper use (not confirmed) maybe no light comes on.

 

 

 

I did test it out by spinning the front wheels on 1st gear and have been driving in the rain and so far still no lights.

[John/Horace]

Give the c/v shaft lip seals on the diff housing a real good look. Mine literally rotted out and started leaking slightly.

I think the metal component is aluminum on the lip seals.

 

Very easy to pop out now and put in new ones, I used one over priced oem and one from Rockauto. About 45 k kms now and no leaks. The new ones I sprayed with Fluid Film a very pricy liquid rust inhibitor. Hoping not not have to do again.

I have had vehicles with well over 200k on this style seal with no issues what so ever. AWD on most newer car is next to no maintenance. Wife’s Santa Fe went to 375k kms with maybe $100 of oil and one hangar bearing.

 

[ttxi475]

The old rear viscous coupler is out.

 

When I loosened the 4 bolts, fluid poured out.

 

Also when spinning the new coupler, you can feel fluid resistance in it. The old coupler spun freely and in thinking it's because all the fluid leaked out.

 

New on the left. Old on the right.

[ttxi475]

The replacement coupler fits.

 

One thing I noticed was that when mounted on the diff, the old coupler would spin freely by hand (grab the 3 bolt flange and spin it). The replacement coupler has A LOT of resistance if spinning it by hand.

[ttxi475]

New coupler is in. Driveshaft is back in. Going for a test drive now. I'm really hoping this is it...

[ttxi475]

Here to report back.

 

The noises are gone. She drives smooth now. AWD is engaging. Tested it by turning hard right and left from a dead stop to wide open throttle and all wheels engaged with no noises.

 

I'm blaming this as faulty seals inside the rear viscous couplers causing the fluid to leak out.

 

I did notice that the two couplers had a different design on the inside. If there's anyone that can chime in on it, please do.

 

I've attached video of the two couplers. The first one is not spinning freely (seals are good, fluid in place) and the second one spins freely (busted seals, fluids leaked out)

 

PXL_20210528_203254772.LS~2.mp4

Edited May 28, 2021 by ttxi475

[ttxi475]

I hope this information helps out others. Good luck to the other people out there!

[John/Horace]

The inner hub flange design does look slightly different. Both say Borg Warner, who I think generally make good stuff.

They are used across the automotive industry by many car/truck builders.

 

Electric clutches are more common on awd systems on newer vehicles than viscous couplers. My old 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee has a New Process WD249 full time awd set up with a viscous coupler. Which started to bunny hop at around 250k  kms.

 

I think they contain silicone type fluid that eventually wears out and starts to gel and stays partially engaged. They can be rebuilt I believe.

Failing at 75k miles seems early. They are a part time set up; getting stuck and spinning out excessively might do some damage.

You kept your rear diff in place and just bolted in coupler, correct. 

 

[Leeroy]

I have same problem with my 2015, however lots of conflicting info on this coupler, I have read they are actually dry inside ( no oil ) , its the pinion seal that leaks oil into the coupler to ruin it, there is no way to add oil into coupler and it appears separate from diff, any Dodge techs on here know for sure? 

[John/Horace]

Retired Millwright mechanic,  four years of engineering school, but I do work on cars a lot. The clutch fans on older cars where viscous driven and could be refilled.

I am pretty confident an awd coupler cannot be refilled. Transmission shops can be a good source of info, they often diffs and transfer cases for dealerships. Lots of dealers don’t touch transmissions any more either.

 

 

Canadian coupler for $2,100.

https://parts.motorcitychrysler.ca/p/52822281/68058066AB.html

 

 

US site call it a viscous coupler, not a coil controlled electric clutch,  viscous driven is fluid imo.

https://www.dodgeparts.com/oem-parts/mopar-rear-axle-bdorc-viscous-unit-kit-68058066ab

[John/Horace]

You should be able to pull drive shaft and front coupler and still drive the car until you get parts. A shop could also do this for you.

The electrical plug on diff needs to stay connected or you will get a dash light.

Give the output shaft seals on both sides of diff a close look. Mine both started leaking and had to be replaced at 150k kms. If leaking now a whole rear used diff might make sense.

Edited July 10, 2022 by John/Horace

[ttxi475]

On 7/8/2022 at 1:14 PM, Leeroy said:

I have same problem with my 2015, however lots of conflicting info on this coupler, I have read they are actually dry inside ( no oil ) , its the pinion seal that leaks oil into the coupler to ruin it, there is no way to add oil into coupler and it appears separate from diff, any Dodge techs on here know for sure? 

 

It has fluids in it. The term viscous means it's using the thickness of the fluids to control front/rear power.

 

From my research when I had this issue, there was no way to rebuild or refill these units.

 

[John/Horace]

After searching around , I think there is an electric clutch for decoupling. The variable part comes from the fluid itself; temperature varies viscosity which changes the amount of grab or power transfer.  
To work with traction control etc the awd has to be able to be decoupled,  this detail turns up on various sites. The site below wouldn’t let me cut paste properly with iPad, but you get the idea.

 

If you remove viscous coupling there a few bolts to remove its bell housing, which would show electric clutch assembly. Like OP is saying, self rebuilding is not going to be an option it seems. He has the most experience on this site with this issue…and he was nice enough to respond!!!

 

 

 Availability All-wheel Drive Availability
Type
Rear Differential
ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
Alternator Battery
SUSPENSION
Front Rear
SXT, Crossroad, Limited, R/T and R/T Rallye with 3.6-litre V6
Six-speed, adaptive electronic control and electronically modulated torque converter clutch
4.127
2.842
2.283
1.452 — Upshift
1.570 — WOT kickdown
1.00 0.690 3.214 0.95 3.16 2.06
CVP, SE Plus, SXT, Crossroad and Limited
Crossroad, R/T and R/T Rallye
Electronically controlled coupling (ECC) with variable torque output Open
160-amp — Standard on all Journey models 525-amp maintenance-free
Independent MacPherson strut, coil spring over gas-charged shock absorbers, stabilizer bar with isolated suspension cradle
Multi-link independent with coil springs, link-type stabilizer bar, gas-charged shock absorbers and isolated rear suspension cradle
                               

[Leeroy]

After calling several wreckers about these AWD ECC couplings (they think its a fluid filled viscous unit which is why they want to sell with diff) however they are supposed to be dry inside, the reason they fail is pinion seal leaks diff oil into elect. clutch coupling . there is also an O ring around pinion housing that should be changed at same time as pinion seal.

the seal is $55. ,O ring is $10. from Dodge. dont try and use a cheap generic O ring cause this one is a special size. I found a good ECC for $900. better than $2500. from Dodge.

I suggest anyone with an AWD journey monitor any sign of oil at front of diff get that coupling off ,replace pinion seal and O ring BEFORE it takes out ECC !! 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Leeroy

[John/Horace]

Was the old one coupling free wheeling and new one stiff to spin by hand. Other have noticed that.

You completed the work your self and it’s back on road ?

 

[Finfam]

I'm having this same issue. Loud hard clunk at tight slow turns. Is this the culprit? What causes it to leak oil?

 

[ttxi475]

25 minutes ago, Finfam said:

I'm having this same issue. Loud hard clunk at tight slow turns. Is this the culprit? What causes it to leak oil?

 

 

Looks like mine. Most likely cause of our issues is that the seals inside gets busted and it leaks all the fluids out. get a new unit and replace it.