Jrp79 Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 09 journey 3.5 keeps loosing fuel pressure when sits but runs good. Took the injectors out and hooked fuel line back up to see if injectors were bleeding out but noticed every time i turn the key to on the fuel pump doesnt turn on it only does some times or all the time while cranking.. Anyway injectors were dry. My problem is some times it will crank for up to 5 sec before it will start and some times itll start right up.. Would this be the fuel pump or could it be some thing else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 (edited) Fuel pumps don’t run continuously until engine is actually running. Key switch makes them pressurize and then shut off; once crank position sensor etc start to communicate then coil and fuel pump get constant power via ecm logic (more or less). Fuel pressure does bleed off over time, direction injection is different with two fuel pumps involved, google details. Some pumps variable speed, others constant with return lines to tank, lots of different systems There is fuel pressure regulator with a vacuum hose on fuel rail of some systems. Can affect start up I believe. What codes are you getting? Always start with codes. Although some fuel issues like CPS sensors failing don’t always generate codes. If there is a schrader valve on fuel rail for gauge, checking actual pressure can also be useful when the problem is occurring. Remember free advice worth everything you pay for it. Edited February 20, 2021 by John/Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 Bank 1 sensor 1 o2 sensor and short runner valve(valve is free so guessing its the motor). Fuel pump doesnt always prime when key is on but kicks on while cranking.. Just wasnt sure if its the pump or something else causing it. When i do hear the pump when key on it starts right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 Extended crank could be a variety of things from a weak battery, cold weather which effects fuel trim (rich/ lean via O2 sensors) to various other things. Hard to say exact cause. Not throwing parts at it but trying to diagnose is the right approach. If no pressure regulator on fuel rail, or codes related to it, then maybe clear present codes and see if they come back again. How high are the k’s on engine? Oxygen sensors are not cheap, but they have big impact on fuel economy and possibly starting. Although cars AFAIK start with default fuel settings on injectors and only try to change rich/lean settings in closed loop mode after engine has reached full operating temp. As confirmed by engine temp sensor feeding back to ecm computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 192k but have paper work from po that the engine has been changed but dont list miles. Ive cleared the codes and them are the only ones that showed up in fault history and keep coming back up with in 20 or so miles. If the fuel pump is supposed to prime every time the key gets turned to the on position then that is my problem. Just not sure if its the pump or something else causing it not to prime.. Im pretty mechanically inclined but $400 for a fuel pump is alot if say its the ignition switch that has a glitch.not sayin it does cause every thing else works good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 And im in south Georgia so its not cold.. Also just replaced the battery and alternator due to what i though was a charging issue but ended up being the starter so i replaced that to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 Pump as far as I know comes on based on pressure in line on start up. Is the slow start on cold starts only, or is it on hot/warm restarts only.? A pressure gauge would tell you if pump is not running when it should be, or if it’s low, going by pump noise not great. Weak pumps in my experience show up on hot days when you try try to restart a car that was already running. The heat creates extra pump clearance and drops pressure needed for injectors and normal start up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 (edited) Does the car ever stall out after it’s running on occasion. CPS sensor can affect pump coming on, but more often it causes car to randomly stall when signal to computer from sensor drops out. Wear item and fairly cheap part...not easily to trouble shoot. Edited February 20, 2021 by John/Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 When it starts it runs fine.. No skip, hesitation or nothing. The extended crank will happen when car is cold or hot. Theres no Schrader valve so i cant put my gauge on it. The instant restarts seem fine.. Sometimes when i shut it off and wait a few minutes then restart its extended but sometimes its quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 Vehicles i worked on the crankshaft position sensor only controlled the spark not the fuel pump.. Fuel pumps would prime when key on and constantly run when cranking and running. On the journey what all controls the fuel pump prime? Pump is working when cranking and running just not all the time on prime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/p0191-dodge-journey/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 I don't have that code Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 Lots of useful info about how fuel injection and pump work in the post. The crank sensor is used to measure engine RPM so yes it would be part of the control logic for the fuel pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 What the actual code numbers you have coming up. Early Journey had some TIPM module issues which is also tied into fuel pump. Could pull it out to look for green corrosion starting. Fuel pump relay could also be acting up, swap with a different relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 It is the 09 so im guessing it is the tipm seems i got the intimate fuel pump issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 I just took the tipm all apart and it actually looked very clean.no corrosion or burn marks any where on the pins or board. P0133 and p1004 are the codes i get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 23, 2021 Report Share Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) During extended no start cranking there would be no power at fuel pump relay from TIPM. People have made up a fuel pump TIPM bypass pigtail with a section of wiring; wouldn’t be easy. Used wrecker TIPM could be another cheaper option. It was nice when car were simpler. Not sure if corrosion or heat damage always visible on bad TIPM. Rockauto might be cheapest new part source. Edited February 23, 2021 by John/Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2021 I made a external relay set up i got from the web. Going to wire it up today and if it cures it then later down the road im going to send my tipm to get the relays replaced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted February 24, 2021 Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 Not an easy thing to work on, or a cheap repair. I hope to not have to deal with this thing at some point. If it works out, posting back with info about where you got diagram etc would be helpful for the site. Good luck hope it isolates problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 Got it all wired up...instructions came from mopar them self.. Very simple and easy to do. I already had everything so it was easier for me.. This also isnt a temporary fix. Its what mopar came out with as a cheap option to permanently bypass the internal fuel pump relay.. I started the car about 25 or more times in 2 days and also drove 100 miles. Starts up on a dime and fuel pump kicks on every time the key is turned on. Im going to attach the pdf file so if this will help any one feel free to down load it.. Also will try to update the title to fuel pump relay fix... Thanks alot for your help guys.. S1308000399.pdf 2late4u and OhareFred 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2late4u Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 sounds like you know what you are doing ,what was the cost of the kit from dodge to do this repair???,,,glad you figured it out and reported back on your success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 I already had everything needed to do the repair.. All thats needed it a 12v 4 prong relay, some wire, wire connectors, solder and iron and heat shrink. But they do sell the kits for them.. Also sell the bypass wires to but thats only to turn the pump on so it can be tested 2late4u 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted March 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Well my extended crank is still there.. I did verify that the pump does kick on the way it should. I have a new o2 sensor im going to install and the short runner valve is on its way so once those are installed that should take care of my 2 codes.. I also got a new crank sensor im gonna try too. Will post my results once everything is installed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrp79 Posted March 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I also unplugged the crank sensor and it still started but did take longer before it did so the crank sensor on this doesnt work they way i thought... Would be nice if it was just the crank sensor delaying the signal to the pcm. If the sensor is bad wouldnt it set off the engine light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John/Horace Posted March 4, 2021 Report Share Posted March 4, 2021 Not always I’ve heard. Sometimes car shuts down instantly from missed signal and no code stored. Happened on daughter in law 2012 Journey like that. Make sure it sits nice and flush in place. People have had old o ring stay in place and it prevented correct function when new sensor put in. Hyundai Elantra issue friend had one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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