FROGBOX

I know its not a new thread, but you can get them on E-bay for $80 + shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/171145090189

Thanks for the kind words. I will admit I am surprised at the lack of options to upgrade the front brakes on the Journeys. Considering they have been built since 2008, I would have thought there would be several brake upgrade options from companies like Wilwood, etc. Especially considering the need for it on the Journeys & Grand caravans. I was also very surprised to find that the cost to do the upgrade with factory OEM parts was so cheap. All new parts for around $500 is a very economical upgrade. It would be a good enterprise if a shop could get the parts at a wholesale price, possibly get a volume discount too, and offer a full upgrade with labor included for $600-700. With the Journey & GC being one of North Americas most popular selling vehicles, there is no shortage of brakes that are in need of upgrading.

We do not know that as fact yet. Unless the OP has had his brakes serviced between the time he purchased it and the time of the failure, I am not totally convinced that the OP is not partially at fault. Cars require maintenance. It would be nice to only have to put gas in it and drive, but the reality is, there are HUNDREDS of moving parts in a vehicle and many of them require some kind of attention at some time or another. As I mentioned before, when I did my rear brakes last month, the rear pads were really stuck in place. They are supposed to move freely so that when pressure is released, they can back off the rotor. The pads being stuck in place caused them to constantly rub against the rotor. I had to remove my pads with a pry bar when they should almost fall out when the caliper is removed. It was 100% my fault for not paying attention to them. I admit it. I assumed that since the car was new, I wouldn't have to pay that much attention to things like that for a few years. I was wrong. My premature break wear was a direct result of lack of maintenance, not a stuck caliper. I took responsibility for it and replaced the parts on my own. I have learned my lesson and will take the 10 minutes to lube the brakes every 6 months when I rotate my wheels. I would be very interested to find out if the OP did have any brake service completed since purchasing the car. I would be willing to bet a lot of the premature rear brake failures we read about are caused by similar issues and that the calipers are not the root cause of the failure, but a casualty of the damage caused by lack of maintenance. Perhaps the pads getting stuck in place, causing them to constantly rub on the rotor generated enough heat that it transferred to the caliper piston and caused internal damage? Again, a direct result of lack of maintenance causing the failure. This is not fact, just an opinion. But one based on actual experiences with the exact same problem as the OP. EDIT: After rereading my post, I decided to check on the recommended service intervals for the Dodge Journey. I couldn't find anywhere that said a "brake service" was part of any scheduled maintenance. Only a "brake inspection" to be done every other oil change. If the owner took his Journey to the dealer for its regular service, and the dealer did not perform the inspections properly to find the stuck pads (thus giving them the opportunity to recommend a brake service), then how is the owner supposed to know to ask to have a brake service done. I would have thought that a brake service would be something that was recommended during one of the scheduled intervals. It should be done at least once a year IMHO. Moving parts need lubrication, especially ones exposed the the elements like brake parts are. So if the owner took his Journey to the dealer for its regular servicing, then it would seem as though he is not at fault.

Anyway, back on to the original question....how to handle the complaint. A2D said it best:

Don't get me wrong here. I agree 100% that he should fight the charges. I didn't say he shouldn't fight. I am not defending the dealer. I think he got ripped and should be compensated. I simply wanted to point out that he did get some use out of them before they wore out and it is not unreasonable to pay for a part of the use he did get. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. You are comparing apples to oranges. A BCM is not a wear item. In your scenario, absolutely the whole job should be covered, not just the wire. But since brakes are a wear item, and the OP did get SOME use out of them, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask him to pay SOME of the cost for new pads. As I said above, I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. IMO, the calipers, rotors & labor should all have been covered 100% by the dealer. No question. The only thing I think the dealer could reasonably get away with charging for is half the cost of the pads. Thats it. If it were a reputable dealer, the whole job should have been covered.

You are 100% correct. Sticky calipers are not acceptable. That is why the calipers were replaced for free under warranty. The question is, how much of the repair should he cover and how much should Dodge cover? I do not agree with the current situation that he be on the hook for 100% of the cost of the pads & rotors. If the car was only a few months old, then there is no question Dodge should have to cover 100% of all the replacement parts. But my argument (again, playing devils advocate here) is that the car is not new and it is not unreasonable to compromise on a 50/50 split of the cost of the pads & rotors. Take car tires or car batteries for example. Many come with replacement warranties. Full replacement within a certain time, usually 1 year, for example. Then a pro rated decrease in coverage the longer the time since the purchase date. If you had a tire that was 50% worn out and had non repairable puncture, would you expect to have a brand new tire for free? No, you pay based on how much of the tire you have already used. This example is no different. The OP got at least 2 years of use from his brakes. Why is it unreasonable to ask him to pay for SOME of that time? I think he should fight for 100% coverage, but not be too disappointed with a 50/50 split if that can be negotiated.

As long as you don't allow air upstream of the caliper (ie: into the hydraulic control unit), then traditional bleeding is fine. You cannot bleed air out of the HCU without a scan tool. It is needed to start the ABS pump manually. To prevent air from getting in there, just make sure you pinch the brake flex line to the caliper.

My wife had a terrible time last winter with the factory tires. So I decided to get her a set of winters for this year. There are many vehicles out there with the same sized bolt pattern & hub that you should have no problem finding good used sets for a decent price. I got a set of 17" alloy wheels with good snow tires already on them for $380 on Kijiji. They are from a Chrysler Pacifica. Some other vehicles you can get wheels from include late model Grand Caravan/Town & Country, Jeep Commander, Jeep Wrangler, Jeep Grand Cherokee and the VW Touran (same as a Caravan). The size you need is: Bolt pattern = 5 x 127mm or 5 x 5" Hub diameter = 71.5mm Here are some currently for sale on Kijiji: Snows on steels for $400 (Burlington): http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-tires-rims-JEEP-GRAND-CHEROKEE-WINTER-SNOW-TIRES-RIMS-FULL-SET-OF-4-W0QQAdIdZ537848747 Snows on Alloys for $500 (Barrie): http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-tires-rims-Jeep-Grand-Cherokee-rims-Pirelli-Scorpion-Ice-and-Snow-Tires-W0QQAdIdZ537170880 Snows on steels for $200 (Kitchener): http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-tires-rims-WINTER-SNOW-TIRES-Champiro-225-65-17-W0QQAdIdZ537730787 Snows on steels for $290 (Simcoe): http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-auto-parts-tires-tires-rims-Michelin-X-Ice-Snow-Tires-235-65R17-W0QQAdIdZ537752081

The calipers were covered. He is saying they charged him for just the pads & rotors because they were considered 'wear items'. While I agree with the OP that it sucks to have to pay out of pocket for new pads & rotors since the reason they wore down was due to the faulty calipers, I have to play devils advocate for a minute. Your car is 2-3 years old and as a result, you have gotten 2-3 years of use out of your rear brakes. So I can sort of see the reasoning behind asking you to pay a part of the bill as you are now getting brand new brakes. Even if they didn't wear prematurely, they would typically be at 50% by now anyway, so you would have had to get them replaced in another year or two anyway. The faulty calipers did wear them prematurely, but not overnight. I would certainly ask for a full coverage on the replacement parts, but if it were me, I would not be too upset if I negotiated a compromise and agreed to split the cost 50/50 since you did have to replace them earlier than you should have. I should also note that I was also in a very similar situation than yours a couple months ago. My rear pads were very low on a car with only 37k km (~23k miles). Instead of fighting with Dodge on getting them replaced, I just did the job myself. New pads & rotors were $120 from an online retailer. It was an upgrade from the original pads as I now have ceramic pads that will last much longer. In the process of replacing the pads, I noticed that they were very hard to remove from the brackets that hold them in place. I had to pry them out with a pry bar. They ride in a channel that has a stainless steel shim to prevent it from rusting. In theory, this shim should allow free movement of the pad. The problem in my case was the steel bracket under the shim started to rust and was pushing on the shim, forcing it against the pad and wedging it in place. The pad was no longer free to move as it should. My theory is that the brakes wore so quickly because 1) they are made of a very soft compound that wears fast, and 2) they were constantly rubbing on the rotor because they were stuck in place and that is why they wore faster. I don't think there is anything wrong with the calipers at all. The brakes just need to be serviced (lubed) once a year to prevent them from binding up.

Thanks for the info. I was not impressed with the amount of dust thrown off by the original brakes, so I assumed the bigger brakes would be a similar compound. It is common for many manufacturers to install softer compound brakes on new cars. You can get better braking performance with a soft compound, but the trade off is shorter pad life and more dust. I will monitor the rims to see how they compare to the rears. I have ceramic pads on the back. If you allow air into the system, then bleeding the ABS system would be required. The ABS pump has to be cycled and that can only be done with a scan tool. But as long as you don't allow air into the rest of the system, all that is required is to bleed the small amount of air in the caliper. No special tools required for that.

The tread width is measured in millimeters. So a 225 spec tire is 225mm wide. A 235 spec tire is 235mm wide. A difference of only 10mm, or about 3/8". If you want to see a noticeable difference in the width, you need to go with a 245 or 255 tire. In your case, a 245/60 17 is wider, and much closer in circumference to your current tire. It will only be around 0.3% different and will not affect the speedometer very much at all.

The center bore of the Dodge rim is 71.5mm. Adapters might be fine for changing bolt pattern sizes, but unless you get the correct bore size for both the Journey Hub and the Z wheel on the adapter, the wheel will never be 100% centered and could cause a vibration at highway speeds.

Premature wear on the pads is a combination of 2 things. First is a soft compound in the pad material. It is great for stopping power, but not so good for longevity. Notice how much brake dust gets thrown on these wheels? That's from the soft pads wearing so quickly. Throw a good set of ceramic pads and they will last much longer. The second reason is that the rear pads can get stuck if they are not serviced. The pads ride in a pair of stainless steel clips. The clips are supposed to be corrosion resistant and allow the pad to move freely in the channel. That's why they are stainless. Unfortunately with this design is the clips sit on a steel bracket. That steel can rust, or gunk can build up in between the bracket and the clip. This pushes on the the clips from underneath and away from the bracket and squeezes the pads. This prevents them from sliding smoothly within the channel of the clip. So basically, the pads are not given the freedom to slide away from the rotor when the brakes are released and they maintain a very slight amount of pressure against the rotor. This slight pressure is not enough to slow you down or place a significant drag on the vehicle, but will still wear out the pads over several thousand miles. How may of us as kids wore holes in the bottom of our shoes from dragging our feet on the ground when riding a bicycle? Same principle. We barely put enough pressure on the ground to slow down, but we still wore out our shoes. When I did my rear brakes (at 37,000 km) last month, I had to use a pry bar to remove the pads. They should almost fall out on their own when the caliper is removed. I removed the clips, used a file to remove the rust buildup under the clips, and applied some anti sieze to the bracket before reinstalling the clip. The new pads were very loose in the clips upon reinstallation. If the calipers, pads and clips are removed and lubricated once a year, they would last longer. Its not difficult to do and can be done when rotating the tires. It takes 5 min per side once the wheels are off.

Yes, the stock shocks will work. Depending on the mileage of your Journey, it might not be a bad idea to change the upper mounts & bearings. They are not expensive and much easier to replace since you have the suspension apart anyway. Keep in mind that you will also need to have an alignment done after, so budget for that as well.

I don't have pictures of the rears, but here is a before & after picture of my front brake conversion: Wheels on: Wheels off:

It was a wrecker in Quebec that happens to be 5 minutes drive from the inlaws. I grabbed them when i was up there visiting in September. Dumas & Fils Piece D'auto Usage in Cookshire: http://www.dumasetfils.ca/

Those are the tires I am looking at too. The Yokohama YK580 are actually cheaper by $3 a tire in the 255/50 size compared to the 235/55 size. I think it will give the truck a nice wide looking stance. the 225's on it now just look too skinny for a SUV. My little VW Jetta had 225 tires on it.

Will you be running winter tires? I bought a set of 17" wheels from a Chrysler Pacifica with snow tires on them for $380. Lots of options available from other Chrysler products, including the Chrysler Pacifica, Jeep Wrangler, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Jeep Commander and Dodge Grand Caravan. They are all 5 x 5 (127mm) with a 71.5mm bore. There are a lot of tire options available in 18" and the ride will be better. Going to 20" means lower profile and a harsher ride. Check out Kijiji to see if there are any deals. When spring rolls around, I will throw on a new set of 19's on my original wheels, but instead of the rare 225/55 19 tires, I will go with either 235/55 19 tires or possibly even 255/50 19 tires. Many more options, and much cheaper. The effect on the Speedo is about 1%, so not a significant difference. The increased tread width may increase the rolling resistance and decrease the fuel economy a bit, but the tires should last longer and the truck will have a nicer stance with the wide tires.

IMHO, the costs outweigh the benefits of upgrading the rear brakes. Install a set of quality aftermarket pads & rotors and you should never have to worry about them. Having said that, if you really want to do it, here are the parts required: QTY Part Description Part Number Cost 1) 1 Caliper left side 68159525AA $108 1) 1 Caliper right side 68159524AA $108 2) 2 Slider pin kit 68144165AA $38 5) 2 Adapter bracket 68144208AA $116 6) 2 Rotor 04779713AA $128 8) 1 Splash sheild left 04779909AB $6 8) 1 Splash sheild right 04779908AB $6 11) 1 Pads 68192439AA $120 12) 2 Parking brake spring 68039257AA $5 Total = $635 Source: Factorychryslerparts.com If you want to save a few more $$$, do a Google search using the part numbers and you may be able to find them cheaper. I just used factorychryslerparts.com because it is very easy to navigate and has great diagrams of the parts. I am not 100% certain that it is necessary to purchase the slider pins? Sometimes they come with the adapters? But, as you can see, the total is more than the cost for upgrading the front brakes. And there is not nearly as much benefit from it. That is why I didn't even consider it for myself.

Yes, those are the bigger brakes. You can tell the difference because the outer part of the caliper is in the shape of the letter E. Small brakes are in the shape of the letter C Here is comparison: Small (C shape): Large (E shape):

I started researching this upgrade back in January when I read that the late 2012's were being delivered with big brakes. Have a read through this thread for more info on the parts & prices: http://www.dodgejourneyforum.com/topic/3062-12s-with-awd-have-bigger-brakes/page-4 The cost to do this upgrade depends on whether you can find the parts used or have to buy new. I did price these parts out new and the total cost was around $500. I had planned on doing this in the spring with new parts, but was able to score a great deal on everything I needed from a salvage yard for only $150, so I jumped on it. Since these brakes are only on the 2013 and some late 2012 cars, there are not many in the salvage yards yet. They would have to be really badly damaged to be written off. You could save a bit of money by buying just the calipers & brackets from the dealer and buy aftermarket rotors & pads as they are usually quite a bit cheaper. The only problem with that right now is availability is limited. There are not many sources for aftermarket pads & rotors yet since they are still new. As for 17" wheels, I parked next to a Grand Caravan today and snapped a picture of the wheel. It is a 17"wheel with the same bigger brakes underneath, so I think you should be OK. However, I am not 100% certain as the offset may not be the same and spacers may be needed. I have 17" wheels from a Chrysler Pacifica for my winter tires, so I will be able to test those in a few weeks. Yes, I only did the front brakes. When braking, the weight of the car shifts forward and there is much more weight on the front wheels, so the front brakes typically do 70-75% of the braking. That is why front brakes are always bigger than rear brakes on cars. I think the fronts are the only weak spot as far as brake rotor warpage goes. The rears have other issues, like premature pad wear due to hung up brake pads, but its not related to the rotor size. Besides, I had just done my rear brakes with new pads & rotors, so didn't want to change them so quickly. I may upgrade the rears in a couple years when the current set wear out.

The 2009 & 2011 brakes are identical, so this should work for you as well.

Second update. I had a chance to take the DJ on a good highway run this weekend. While I didn't notice a huge difference around town, I can confirm the brakes are MUCH better than the ones I took off when braking hard at highways speeds. I was alone in the car with no kids, so I was able to really push the vehicle. I stopped from 100kph to zero in about 120 feet or so. That was on a downhill highway off ramp, so on a flat surface, it may be shorter. It felt very solid and smooth. No spongy pedal or vibrations at all in the body or steering wheel. My previous brakes would have shook the whole vehicle. I am super happy with the upgrade. Highly recommended if you can get the parts at a decent price.

Just a quick update on the brakes. The Journey is my wife's daily driver, so I haven't had much seat time since the upgrade. I asked her if she felt anything different and she did notice the vibrations have disappeared, so I feel good about that. However, she did not notice any difference in the braking performance. So last night, I took it for a spin to run some errands and have to report that I too did not feel much of a difference in the braking performance either. With the larger rotors, pads & dual piston calipers, I would have thought the braking would be a little better. By better, I mean better grip and less pedal effort to come to a stop. But these brakes feel almost the same as the ones I took off. But this was just scooting around town, so no hard braking was done. These brakes may perform better in hard braking situations than the smaller ones I took off. But for everyday use, there is little difference. Having said that, brake performance was not my reason for doing this upgrade. I did it to extend the brake job intervals. The Journey has 37,000km on it and was ready for its third set of front brakes!!!. The first set was done at 20,000km under warranty because of excessive shudder under braking. Now the second with only 17,000km is starting to do the same under hard braking (highway off ramps especially). I hope to get at least 100k out of the new bigger brakes. My Jetta is due for new front brakes and they have over 200k on them!!! EDIT: Drove the DJ a lot this weekend and the in town braking has gotten better. Perhaps the pads just needed to bed to the rotors again? When I got them, they had a coating of rust which I cleaned off with a wire wheel. So the surface was not perfect. Now that the pads & rotors have worn in, they have more grip and I can rwally feel the difference. It just feels so solid. I have so much more confidence when braking now.

tstone, I appreciate your concerns. They are certainly valid points and I did consider them when doing the conversion. While I can wrench with the best of them, I will admit that I am no expert when it comes to the electronics. But I have done many brake upgrades on newer cars with computerized ABS systems with no issues whatsoever. My other car is a Jetta TDI and it also suffered from the small brake syndrome. Off the shelf parts are readily available for those cars as well since the same car with different motor options had bigger brakes. I was able to convert my 280mm brakes to 312mm brakes for about $300 using parts from another car. The only difference was that in the case of the Jetta, I also had to change the spindle as it had a different mounting system for the calipers. In both upgrades, the cars were newer with computer controls. So there is a significant difference compared to the older cars you speak of that were all mechanical in their operation. The computer will learn and adapt to the changes and still be able to function properly. I am not concerned at this point. But if an issue does come up, I will certainly post what I find here. I can confirm that almost all of the components are the same. The brake booster, vacuum pump, master cylinder and HCU (hydraulic control unit aka proportioning block) part numbers are the same between 2011 & 2013. Source: 2011 brake booster components 2013 brake booster components 2011 master cylinder components 2013 master cylinder components 2011 HCU components 2013 HCU components I tried to find the part number for the ABS control module, but for some reason, the 2013 only shows an AWD part, even though I selected FWD??? So I could not compare the ABS module part numbers accurately. 2011 ABS module 2013 ABS module