Neto

^^^ What I have seen in comparing the strand count on wires of the same gauge, across a span of 47 years (my 1946 Plymouth compared to a 93 Chrysler T&C) is that they used a much higher strand count wire on the older car, when compared to the later model one. More strands = greater ability to withstand repeated flexing. And about the only place where there was more or less constant flexing on the old car was in the engine harness. Incidentally, however, that's also where I saw the most wire failure in the 93. I would have expected to find it in the door to body harnesses. But come to think of it, I'm not sure I did a strand count on those wires on the 93. Should do that sometime, because they just may have used high strand count wire in those constant flex areas.

Two to add: One off-brand, our 'new to us' family car (AKA, my wife's car): 2019 Honda CR-V 2019 Ram Classic. (Need to sell: the Grand Caravan and/or the Journey) I also see that I failed to mention the 75 Dodge Dart slant-six I bought, and later gave to my oldest son. (Needs some repair work, and currently not tagged.)

Just be very careful about static electricity while dismantling that system. (When I was scrapping out a 93 Chrysler T&C, the manual had dire warnings about what could happen if you accidentally set it off. I DID manage to pull it w/o setting it off, so I do not know from experience how bad it would be.)

No help, but I feel your pain. Our 2009 started with these same "idiot lights" coming on early last Summer. It spent 7 weeks in & out of a local shop, we paid them a wad, and they couldn't fix it. My wife lost her confidence in the car, so we purchased a newer used vehicle . (She insisted that it not be another MoPar, so I won't say what it is.) I've driven it around 1,500 miles since then - with all of these lights still on, and it runs and drives fine. (Our case is possibly different, because this Journey is the base model, and never had cruise, which you loose automatically anytime the ABS system is not working. So that made no difference. This shop replaced several sensors, as well as the PCM, all to no advantage. Except to them, and the parts stores....)

The video was helpful, because just from the picture alone, it was my impression that this was accessed from the transmission pan, on the bottom side.

That is interesting to know. The glue/adhesive on the one I tried to clean off (93 Chrysler T & C - 2nd Gen) was not like that. It held onto the razor knife blade - too sticky still. Maybe if I had tried to do it when it was really cold? I don't know, but it was really a chore getting it off.

What did you use to clean up the old "glue"?

I also prefer to do repairs myself if at all possible, but after attempting to remove the hatch window from a 93 Chrysler T & C, I'd not try it again. I was using a razor knife, then a serrated knife once I got a bit of clearance, but if the two surfaces touched, it was stuck again. Then in the process of trying to keep them apart, I pried on it too much, and it shattered. With a broken one, I'd probably do the clean up myself, but I wouldn't try to pull one at a salvage, unless someone can tell what the secrete is. Spray in dish soap? But then everything is slippery.... (I have replaced a side window in another T & C, a 2000, and removed all of the side glass from that 93 T & C w/o breaking any, but the rear window and the windshield, those came out in pieces.)

Update: I still have the 09 Journey. Registration ran out in November, so I had to make a decision quickly. The "off-brand" 2019 we bought is an AWD, and came new M&S tires, but my wife doesn't trust anything but Blizzaks. The salesman on this deal was extremely knowledgeable, and we were both impressed with his manner. But the one thing he told us that my wife won't accept is that you almost cannot get this car stuck in snow, even if you try to. So I put the Blizzaks back on the Journey, while trying to find the preferred steel wheels for the Honda CRV. Apparently they were never offered, and I cannot even find any after-market steel wheels for this vehicle. Bought some used alloys, but wanted to clean off the salt corrosion and repaint, and it's COLD here in Ohio, so we're using the Journey for winter driving for the time being. So that explains why the Journey is still in my "stable". (Also, I wanted to be sure that it wouldn't fail catastrophically right away after selling it, and it also has an outstanding recall on it.) So here's the actual update on the Journey. About a week ago the ESP and BAS lights came on, and stay on. I don't have a code reader - borrowed one before - so I don't know what codes it's throwing. I've read other threads here about the ESP light coming on, and the car won't go out of Park. Nothing like that here. I should also say that the wheels on which the snow tires are mounted do not have the fancy sensor valve stems. (But these lights didn't come on until well after I installed those wheels.) So these lights stay on all of the time, but I haven't noticed any difference at all in the way the car runs or drives. It's just those lights. So should I expect it to suddenly do like the other guy's car, and either not run, or not go out of park? This Electronic Stability Program (ESP) Indicator Light / Brake Assist System (BAS) malfunction, does it just result in a more 'manual, old-timish' braking and steering scenario, where the ABS and features like stop working, or is it more dangerous than that? (I already said in previous posts that most of my driving experience has been on vehicles w/o any of that stuff, and actually think that for people who learned to drive on vehicles like that, you actually have better control of the vehicle w/o ABS. Like trying to slow down when the right side wheels are on snow or ice, and only the left side is on clear pavement. I don't want to start an argument about that - just saying that for me personally, I have better control of a vehicle w/o ABS than one with it.) My concern as to this malfunction creating a dangerous situation is mostly due to the fact that our daughter is in the hospital due to complications of their twins' upcoming birth, and so we often use this car to transport their 19 month old. (Taking care of him most days, so our son-in-law can keep working, and spend time with our daughter in the hospital. It is now 4 weeks that she's been there.)

I have a 46 Plymouth, and yes, of course it is 6 volt, so much larger gauge wire everywhere. I also had a 93 Chrysler T&C that I scrapped out after the Rust devil got it. I found various places where the wires were broken in the 93, especially in the engine harness, where movement of the engine results in constant flexing. I have compared the wiring in the two vehicles, gauge for gauge, and the difference, and the key in the case of wires that sustain daily flexing, is the strand count. The finer the strands, the more flexible they are, and the longer it will take before that flexing results in broken wires. (For an extreme example, compare automobile wire to stranded wire used in buildings where conduit is required. The building wire is available at a significantly lower cost, but the strand count is much lower for the same gauge. Very stiff in comparison.)

I definitely get it about all of the computerized bells & whistles. I don't even care for the electric stuff, like power window winders. I know how to roll a window up & down, no problem. Personally, having learned to drive w/o even power brakes etc, I also have a strong dislike for ABS. Our small street empties out on a larger street on a fairly steep down-hill slope. When there is heavy snow fall, the township usually only gets the center of our street cleared. So descending to the stop sign, the right wheels are both on packed snow, while only the left wheels have traction. So the ABS senses that the right wheels are sliding while the left side wheels are still rotating, and shuts down the brakes. So then you just go right on down the hill into the cross traffic. My wife just takes the long route, out the other way. (I do find that it stops better if I put it into neutral going down that hill. Something about having the main braking wheels - the front - being the powered wheels as well just doesn't help vehicle control on slippery surfaces. The wheels that are expected to do the majority of the braking are trying to spin at the same time.)

Great resource! I saw that there is a chapter (20) on the standard transmission. Was that available in cars destined to stay in Mexico? Where else? (I still distrust automatics.)

Here's a funny thing. US 62 goes through near Choctaw, correct? (I think it goes through south east of where I grew up in north east Oklahoma, maybe through Muskogee?) Anyway, it also goes through our little town here in Ohio (Berlin). It's a highway I'd like to drive someday, all the way from Buffalo, NY down to Brownsville, TX. (Once I can finish the restoration on my 46 Plymouth....)

My Dad grew up north of Enid, in the Kremlin & Hillsdale area. My folks both graduated from the Corn Bible Academy (in Corn, OK), & I've been to church youth events in the Weatherford & Hydro area. (My great grandfather was one of the original settlers in Corn, then spelled Korn. Later they moved down to the Gotebo area, south of you.) I have relatives in the Fairview area as well.

We bought our 2009 Journey used in Florida, a 'rear plate only' state, so it didn't have any holes drilled in the front bumper skin. I just went the pull tie route, sort of planning to make a bracket that would fasten to the steel structure behind the grill, and stick through in order to fasten the tag in place. But I never got it done, and a year or so back Ohio dropped the requirement for a front plate. So when after years of use one of the pull ties broke, off it came.

What part of Oklahoma are you from? I grew up near the north edge of Tulsa County, not far from Washington County (Collinsville). (And 16 miles west of Claremore.)

2009 FWD Journey, 4 banger. Southern part of the Ohio 'Snow Belt" (I call this the salt belt. Holmes County hills. Narrow back roads, sharp turns, steep assents & descents.) That said, what I've noticed is that ABS works against you when attempting to slow down on a descent, down to a stop sign. The Journey does better if I put it into Neutral as I come down to the stop sign at the end of our street. (My wife just avoids that way leaving our street, and takes the round-about route out to the main road.) This car does well in snow, I'd say. But then I slow down for bad conditions. I grew up in Oklahoma, where we had more ice covered roads than snow. Remember one time on a trip back to Oklahoma - hit an ice storm in Missouri. Put up in a motel early that Saturday afternoon, because the heater couldn't keep the ice off of the wipers. Next morning went back out on the highway, and the ice was still all there. Solid sheet. Driving about 25 MPH. A PU with a camper goes by at about 40, does a few donuts in front of us, down through the median, back up on the road, and away he went. Didn't learn a solitary thing. Anyway, never had problems with our Journey on packed snow here in Ohio.

I didn't read over the entire thread so far, but I had a 2000 Chrysler T&C that would get soaked carpet like that. It was the drain from the wiper stowage area. Leaves fall in there, rot, then plug the tube that is supposed to drain water out of that area before it got high enough to get into that chamber of the heating-cooling system. I could usually just pull the rubber drain tube off on the firewall, and the water would pour out. There was always a lot of water in there before it would actually come in through there, into the cabin. Then just had to run a wire through the drain tube to clear it. (And try to remember to keep after it, before it soaked the carpet again.) In my case, it would come pouring in just as I moved the car. As it tilted to one side, then the water would come in on the low side. Same deal with the trees - lots of pine needles in my case.

Get ready, people are probably going to jump down your back about wanting to disable the ABS. I myself am inclined to agree that it sometimes does more damage than helps. But maybe only if you learned to drive before they started putting that corruption on cars. (At the intersection where our street enters the next larger street, it is a steep descent down to the stop sign. They also rarely clear the snow & ice away out of the right side of the lane, and so the right tires are on snow or ice, while the left tires are on mostly dry pavement. What I've experienced is that under these conditions, the ABS prevents me from easily stopping the car there, because it continually disengages the brakes on the left side, the tires on which I am depending to be able to stop. I learned to drive way before ABS, and I can do better than this automatic system in knowing how much brake to use, and when to let off for a bit to regain traction.) But sorry that I do not know the answer to your question, for this vehicle. I had an off-brand (non-MoPar) PU that I pulled the ABS fuse, and it disabled the cruise as well. In my case, I didn't need that anyway, because we live in the country, and in a county with mostly narrow, curvey dirt roads that go up & down steep hills. So not a place for cruise.

Welcome. I am an Okie in exile (Ohio). Grew up north of Tulsa.

My dad was a service department parts guy (that is, he served the mechanics, not the public) his whole life, and his work vehicle was almost always one made by the manufacturer serviced by the dealership where he worked. But he never worked at any Ford place. Chrysler Plymouth Dodge DeSoto starting out, a short stint at Pontiac, then Rambler. The last place was 23 years at Oldsmobile. He had a Rambler, but wasn't at Pontiac very long at all. His Dad was a Ford guy, although he only ever owned 4 cars his whole life. 1925 Model T, 39 sedan, 49 sedan, and a 61, all Fords.

Sorry about this, but I drifted off of the original topic, and onto an issue with a non-MoPar vehicle. As a dyed-in-the-wool MoPar guy it hurts me to admit this, but we now own a 2019 Honda CR-V that was to replace the Journey. (My Dad, who is gone now for almost 2 years, DID tell me once that he wouldn't disown me if we got a certain other make, the one that starts with an "F".... That's what my wife's dad always had, with a few exceptions.) I say "was to replace" because I haven't sold the Journey yet - I simply do not know how to sell a vehicle. (I don't mean that in the technical sense, but more like "I cannot bring myself to part with it, other than through its eventual demise, probably at the hands of the "Salt Devil". And my younger brother has the same "illness", and incidentally that's where my first car, a 62 Chrysler Newport, still sits, in the pasture behind his house.) So this 5th Gen 2019 Honda CR-V EX-L came with 18" alloy wheels. (Apparently none of that year's models came with steel wheels, and I cannot find any after-market steel wheels that say that they will fit this vehicle. There seems to have been a design change in the middle of this generation, after the 2017 model.) So the wheels I ended up with for the Blizzaks are 17" alloy OEM Honda wheels of uncertain year. My best guess is that they are probably from 4th Gen Honda CR-Vs. Honda talks in metric nonsense of course, but the lug pattern on these wheels is actually 5x4.5, the same as the 1993 2nd Gen Chrysler Town & Country on which I conducted a "mercy-killing" when it became evident that it was destined to a slow death at the hands of the aforementioned "Salt Devil". Those wheels would probably fit without the caliper interference on the face area, but they are 15s, and the only tire I can find that is a close match to the 235/60R18 is a 235/65R17. (Two additional tire rotations per mile.) I read an article on Summit Racing about the hub-centric vs lug-centric controversy, where the author states that the hub plays no part in supporting the weight of the vehicle during operation. (He says that it is friction alone, regardless of the wheel/hub design.) Then a woman who claims to be qualified to speak on the matter wrote a long response, supporting the theory I had always thought to be correct, that the hub DOES support the wheel, unless it is designed as lug-centric. (I have a small aluminum trailer (4x8, open box) with lug-centric hubs and wheels, and the lug bolts are of a larger diameter, which makes sense if they are depended on to support the weight, not the hub's machined outer surface. I will send a text message to the seller of the alloys, and see if he can tell me what vehicle these wheels came from. (I didn't personally pick them up - my son-in-law needed to go down to that area, some 2 1/2 hours south of us, so I asked him to make the transaction.) EDIT: My guess is that the 17" Honda alloy wheels would fit the 2017 and earlier CR-Vs, but I don't have one to test it on.

Another question: What do you all think of running spacers on the front wheels? (There is a bit of caliper interference, a bit less than 1/4". The thinnest spacers are 5mm. But this would push the wheel out far enough that the wheel would no longer engage the flange on the hub. (So in my thinking, that would make it "lug bearing", not "hub bearing". Not crazy about doing this.)

The result: (If I posted these photos here already, in another thread, my apologies.) Painted the centers (black) by hand, with a # 2 camel hair brush which I had trimmed a bit to get more of a point. Not anywhere near perfect. I'm not as steady with hand work as I was back when I was 1/3 my current age.

Do you still have an old Neon? If anyone is interested, I have the bumper skin for a 98 model - free for anyone who can use it. (That was the last year for that generation, correct?) Also have 4 14" rims off of that same car. (Had two sets, one with snow tires. The tires were used on another vehicle, but still have the wheels. Going to have to start getting rid of some things. My wife already thinks I'm a pack rat, and "hoarder" is the next in line....) Also have a (white) right front fender for that 98. [The deal was that we bought that car for our daughter to get to & from school. Then someone hit her, and although the other insurance company totaled it, being an older vehicle it wasn't badly damaged at all. I was going to fix it, but then after it left her sitting once time, she didn't trust it anymore. Then after I bought this bumper skin I was talking about, I found out that although I had the VIN info off of the salvage car I got the parts from, there was no VIN tag on the bumper, and after reading what I'd have to do ti get a title again, I got "scared" that they'd confiscate the car, as it says in the state handbook. So I let the insurance company take it anyway. A friend who rebuilds newer salvage cars later told me they very seldom actually investigate the replacement parts, and especially not on one that old, but it was long gone by then.]